YNS Live with Lee Matthew Goldberg and Natalie Kimber

May 12, 2022

Listen to a new episode of Your Next Stop recorded live on Fireside with host Juliet Hahn featuring author, screenwriter, and publisher Lee Matthew Goldberg and literary agent Natalie Kimber.


Lee Matthew Goldberg is the author of nine novels including THE ANCESTOR and THE MENTOR and the YA series RUNAWAY TRAIN. His books are in various stages of development for film and TV off of his original scripts. He has been published in multiple languages and nominated for the Prix du Polar. VANISH ME will be out in Feb ’22. After graduating with an MFA from the New School, his writing has also appeared as a contributor in Pipeline Artists, LitHub, The Los Angeles Review of Books, The Millions, Vol. 1 Brooklyn, LitReactor, Mystery Tribune, The Big Idea, Monkeybicycle, Fiction Writers Review, Cagibi, Necessary Fiction, Hypertext, If My Book, Past Ten, the anthology Dirty Boulevard, The Montreal Review, The Adirondack Review, The New Plains Review, Maudlin House, Underwood Press, and others. He is the co-curator of The Guerrilla Lit Reading Series and lives in New York City. Follow him at LeeMatthewGoldberg.com, Twitter, Instagram, Amazon, and FRINGE.


Natalie Kimber is a literary agent with The Rights Factory and previously worked with the Georgetown University Booklab and Literary and Creative Artists in Washington, DC. She represents trade authors as well as academics, artists, and poets. She is passionate about bringing books into the world and developing them with authors from first ideas through publication. She is an editor for the literary journal Monologging, the organizer of the NYC Writers Circle, and the founder of the Weehawken Writers and Artists Studio. Follow her on Twitter.

Remarkable Quotes:

As a writer, you're very alone. You write alone and put your work out there and you have a few people in your life. A lot of times it's a business relationship, and it's about money. To have people who really just care is invaluable.” ~ Lee Matthew Goldberg


Keep looking for the person who's gonna like your thing because eventually, if you just stay positive, you will get there.” ~ Natalie Kimber



Today’s episode is sponsored by:


  • Together Women Rise is dedicated to ensuring that every woman and girl has the opportunity to live freely, pursue her dreams, and reach her full potential. We are a powerful community of women and allies engaged in learning, giving, and community building. Visit TogetherWomenRise.org to learn more and join us!



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Go to Episode 153: Beth Nydick | Publicity Strategist

Go back to YNS Live with David Shriner-Cahn



Juliet Hahn  00:01:20 

And that what I'm gonna have you do is is because I think if the the banging is from the from an echo for whatever,


Natalie Kimber  00:01:25 

Now you know what? I think it was my earrings. I took them off.


Juliet Hahn  00:01:25 


Oh, good. Okay.


Natalie Kimber  00:01:29 

I think it was my earrings hitting the...



Juliet Hahn  00:01:32 

Okay. Great. And if you do hear anything else, we can just what we do as we'll


mute when someone else is talking, Do you know I mean? So on a big deal?


Natalie Kimber  00:01:40 

Okay. Cool, I I think it's fine. Now. I'm almost positive it with my hearing.


Juliet Hahn  00:01:44 

Perfect. Okay. So,


Natalie Kimber  00:01:45 

Just hitting the cord.


Juliet Hahn  00:01:47 

yep, if you guys wanna click those two little lines at the bottom, and you can broadcast to the world,

you'll see where it says broadcast world. Just click it and you can send it to people.


Natalie Kimber  00:01:54 





Juliet Hahn  00:02:40 

We'll be starting in a minute.


Natalie Kimber  00:02:44 

Okay. Great.


Juliet Hahn  00:03:19 

Wasn't that kind of perfect.

I'm gonna invite you guys up on

to turn your video on,

let me get you guys there. Hello, everyone.

So we have a bunch of people listening linkedin right now. Hello. If you guys are

joining why live,

at any of the other platforms, whether it's Linkedin, Facebook, Twitch, Youtube,

Hold on

that. Let me get you up there.

Or wherever you are. Hello, Gina, and I know people will be joining in and out, So we are going...


Natalie Kimber  00:03:53 



Juliet Hahn  00:03:55 

Yes. This is it's exciting. So


Natalie Kimber  00:03:57 

It is.


Juliet Hahn  00:03:58 

I'm so glad to have you guys here.

I'm so glad to have you guys here on why live. It is on Fire. And what I'm really excited also about is this is a little bit of a different show because we're gonna talk a little bit about your passions

but and how you follow that, you know, your business, but we're also going to talk about how you guys work together, and then we're gonna have audience interaction

if people want to jump on just ask you guys some questions. So i'm first going to,

you know, introduce you guys to the audience. We'll have people just so you know, people are gonna be jumping in and out here. There's a couple other shows that are going on

at the same time. But right now, we have a ton of people on Linkedin. So hello, everyone


Natalie Kimber  00:04:39 

Hey, everyone.



Juliet Hahn  00:04:40 

on of course, my phone had during ring, if your phone does ring just flip it up. But... Okay, guys, welcome it to why live with my guest

Matt Kim and Lee Matthew Goldberg. So matt is a literary agent, and Lee is a author and screenwriter.


this is gonna be fun because we met through... Actually, lead you and I met through Linkedin through one of my other guest Laura Tesla which is really fun. We we kinda chatted.


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:05:06 


Right. Right.


Juliet Hahn  00:05:10 

Right? And then I was, like, you you have to join. So


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:05:10 



Juliet Hahn  00:05:13 

just introduce your guys self, and then I'm gonna, you know, shout out to our sponsors after you guys kinda get going.

So Lee, why don't you start and introduce yourself? Yeah.


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:05:20 

So. I'm leave

That over

I'm an author and budding screenwriter as well.

I've written nine novels, mostly thriller. And my latest is a young adult trilogy to some projects and development as well it though.


Juliet Hahn  00:05:37 

That's so exciting.

Yes. And matt, please introduce yourself.


Natalie Kimber  00:05:42 

Right now. Hi.

I'm Matt. I'm a literary agent at the rights factory, which is a agency for authors author based in Toronto. Although, I'm this sole literary agent of the company in the New York City area

and always have.

I rep the authors mostly the American but people all around the world.


the rights factory based now in Toronto in

we have people in the Uk in Spain in Italy,

and we're just taking over the world. We matthew Goldberg is an author I represent

or I would say who represents with

founder of,

and I'm just really excited to talk about our passion, which is books and publishing and just you know, the the entertainment industry and storytelling,

so we're all about.


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:06:30 



Juliet Hahn  00:06:30 

And and... Yep. And, you know what story telling. That's... One of the reasons why I also wanted to get you as on here because, obviously, with podcast,

podcast are all about story telling storytelling is a huge passion of mind because

there's not an opportunity like this, like a an intimate people, But also, where we're broadcasting live where other people who can hear your stories. Right? You guys can go and talk, you know, as as liz introducing as folks. You can get out his following.

This is bringing it out to a different following, and that's what I I'm so loving social audio

for this because it's bringing a world, like, worlds together, where storytelling into in so many different things You can... To storytellers in the stage. You can store health through

movies through books, But here, you know, with podcasting,

a lot of times, with interviews, yes, that is. But with certain interviews, you really grab and get stories. And when you get those stories, other of people,

it really connects. So, like, when when you guys start sharing your story, it's going to resonate with someone that you might even realize someone that media like, i've always wanted to write a book, and they just laid it out for me and really made me believe that I can do this. So I wanna jump right in there, and then I will shout out to the sponsors.

Once we get a little bit more

people jumping in here, but Lee, I would love for you to kinda talk about how you got into writing and how you became a writer.


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:07:47 

Yeah. I mean, it's been a passion mine ever since I was, like, five years old, I used to write so that my dog getting into, like, weird situations.

And even in school and I'd be bored in, like, science and math class, I was, like, working on books few screenplay. And so it's just always been something that I've wanted to do. And my first foot came at in twenty fifteen, I've been wrapped with the rights factory for about ten years.

And it was just so exciting to finally

merge my passion and actual, like, monetary


And I hope I get to do it for the rest of my life. And g working with great people like that.


Juliet Hahn  00:08:21 

I love that. So I have to now... Because this is where my curious questions come in. So I love that you you know, always wanna to right when you were younger, my brother was the same. He was always writing things and he's a writer as well. And it would always assassinate me because that was like, what he would do, like, he would go and, you know, kids Maybe be were going to play sports, which she did. But there was times where he just I just wanna write this, and it was always... I'm black. That would always fascinating to me because I were like, yeah.


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:08:25 





Natalie Kimber  00:08:44 



Juliet Hahn  00:08:45 

I don't wanna don't worry anything. I just wanna... I wanna speak. You know, I wanna speak about something. So did you... Were either of your parents in the creative world or either of your parents writers, did you see it or it was just something that you really were born with?


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:08:47 


I mean, my parents are super supportive and they were huge readers, so there were always books in my house and to love


Juliet Hahn  00:09:03 



Natalie Kimber  00:09:03 

Yeah. Same.


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:09:04 

sir. So

they were just thrilled. They would be my first readers, and, especially, my dad, use, like, a great editor.

And what I loved about him was that he

always just was sprayed up with me. So something he's not working in the book. You would absolutely tell me even went if I was, like eleven.

So it it it really helped me learn the outs of publishing with people have want as well.


Juliet Hahn  00:09:23 


But but that's so true because my daughter, I think I shared with you when we first talked. To my daughter is a huge reader, a huge reader. And just recently, she said to me, you know, mom I think I might wanna be a writer. And I said, oh, I love that. And even though I am deflect my oldest creator like my dad's like says we even though we're big... Like, we have a a long line of dyslexia.


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:09:34 

Right. Right.


Juliet Hahn  00:09:45 

My mom was a huge reader. I was never a huge reader. However, I loved

stories. I love storytelling telling, and then when my kids became a certain my kids were little, I actually...

I share this on the podcast, but I used to tell them I used to make up these stories. Like, and literally, we would be sitting whether it was, you know, on a trip,

whether it was in the park, whether it was, you know, on the train when we moved out in New York City, Like, you know, when they were even like six seven,

and they would say, mom, can you tell us the stories? And I would make these stories And it's so crazy to me that I never... I never wrote them down because I never saw myself as a creative person because of my deflect. I was athletic. That was my path. And so it's really interesting that that was never kind of in... You know, it was never something that I ever thought about, but I look back, and I'm... And I still kind of remember a little bit of the stories but people would stop and they'd be like, oh, wow. Where did you hear that story? That's amazing. And I'm like, oh, I just made it up and they would look at me. Like, I had ten heads. They're, like, wait you just came up with that in your brain, and I would say, you know, I came over in my brain, but no one ever was like, oh, you should write a kids buck. You know, you should write a children story. So I never thought about it. And so I love that you were able to kinda go to your parents and say,


Natalie Kimber  00:10:17 



Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:10:19 



Natalie Kimber  00:10:40 



Juliet Hahn  00:10:55 

hey, can you... You know? And so they really kind of instilled that into you. Like, yes. But So we used to read, like, i I mean, also, like, I... That was my favorite time as when my kids would jump on my lap you know, after because we... We were very

you know, go go go family. So we were always like at the park playing, you know, doing stuff when we were in the city. So we were very active


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:11:15 



Juliet Hahn  00:11:15 

But then the second we would come home. It was like, okay. Let's sit and

grab your favorite books, and let's sit and read. And I would say, I would sit crossing you the leg and then they all jump on my last. And we would sit and we would read for a long time and as much as we were very active and kind of, you know, you know, I'm a a a move, like I move. I'm always moving, but that was one of my favorite times bedtime stories, You know, where it was like, you know, who wants to put the kids to bed? It was... Always... I I wanna put the because I want to read to them even though, you know my husband

started, you know, getting involved in bedtime when he didn't... When you would come home earlier,


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:11:48 



Juliet Hahn  00:11:48 

he would say, oh, i'll just read one book, and I'm like, oh, no. I always read like for. You know, It's just...

I love it.


Natalie Kimber  00:11:55 



Juliet Hahn  00:11:56 

So I think that's really, really special. So matt, how did you get into being a literary agent?


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:11:56 



Natalie Kimber  00:12:02 

I felt really lucky and just stumbled onto it

more or less. I moved from Denver, Colorado to Washington d in two thousand and seven, and it was kind of, like, on a win. It was, like, a last minute decision, and it was just a huge life change. And one of those things I look back on and I'm like,

if I didn't move to Pc at that time, my whole entire life would be different. And it was one of the best things that happened to me. But so I moved there and

I was looking for job on Craigslist,

and I was making friends on my myspace, and, you know,

I found this job as a literary assistant, and I ended up working for my first mentor Mir Ellis.

She is literary creative artist incorporated in the Dc area. She represents like, David Lynch, Robert Kaplan,

that Michael Gal that did the the book about

the the genius of da vinci.

Now I can't remember exactly the title. But


Juliet Hahn  00:12:56 

I know what you mean Yeah.


Natalie Kimber  00:12:57 


boutique literary agency, she has her own operation, like, out of a house next upper her house.

In Northwest Washington Dc. And so I went down there.

It was in my neighborhood when I was living in Dc, and I met her in her assistant Jane.

Is now elderly and a lot of agents

end up doing this until, like, the end of their life because they just keep going and sustaining the careers of their authors.


at the time, I think she was like, in her seventies and her assistant was in her sixties, and I went in and, you know, they talked to me about reading in books, which I'm very much likely. I was reading from a really early age

and just ferocious. Like, I was reading commercial fiction, like Michael Wright, when I was like, in fifth grade,


Juliet Hahn  00:13:42 

Sounds like my daughter.


Natalie Kimber  00:13:43 

And, you know, in all all the kids book stories from, you know, very stories to tell them the dark to, like, the red wall series to everything else all Ever wrote.


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:13:53 



Natalie Kimber  00:13:53 

I was into that, and also, my family was really big into movie. And we watched films, like my entire tiles, i I remember friends being, like, how have you seen everything? And it's just because it's kind of like a thing in my family. Like, we just love stories and entertainment.


so really, as soon if I started working with Mir and Jane at Lc.

It was like, I always describe it as, like, the Hallelujah chorus, like, all the light bulbs going like a thousand light, not just one. It was like, this is it this is what you should do. I'm am a huge admire of literary talent. And I just always have? Just the way stories are woven.

And I... You know, I dabble rounded writing a little bit, but I remember my older

Angela. She's a total genius and

an therapist aerospace engineer now.

I remember her writing, like, an adventure story when I was kinda of writing a story when when we were young and meet they just being blown away by her writing and being like,

okay. I don't know that I'm really good at this. But, I guess, I've also always felt like, I wanna be as supportive role in creative industry.

I love talent, and I think there's people that can do better than me and I wanna stand

in the background and let people shine. And I really wanna help

authors of all kinds make it. I'm not necessarily in this just to find the roles or the J luvings.

I'm in this to help authors who are really, good at what they do from all walks of life, you know, make it into the industry and see their books in print.

The publishing industry just enormous. So

it's, you know, it's of mystery to a lot of people, and there's a lot of people trying to break into it. And Agent is just kinda all about supporting creativity and amazing stories.

Stories, like, they stick with you. I still remember stories i Red school like Hd wells, the sugar people are, you know, I remember stories I read back in, like, third great.

And, you know, I think I think we can all kinda relate to that, but...

But it's all about, you know, porting literature. So I

was in Dc for a while, I worked with Georgetown

in the George Sounds book club, which is a small office that helps the ten length fastest publish.

And then when I came to new Were,

I ended up eating Sam of the rights factory.

And he invited me to have a copy. He's like, I was actually kind of agency myself with just a few authors. I really loved at the time.


you know, solo operation

and and Sam invited me the coffee, and he was, like, why are you an agent? This business is so hard. You have to really want it. Like, tell me why? What what are you doing in this industry? And so I told them all about it, and he was, like, you know, take your time, but I think you should join my company. I have all these resources that we can give you and a really fantastic authors,

and I can see all this potentially you have. And really,

sam came into my life right at that perfect moment when I had moved to New York, and I wasn't sure how to really break in,

but I needed a company that see that I was already doing things that I was already really invested in it, you know, with with several years experience, you know, working

in sister roles internal roles,

you know, operational management roles,

project management roles, and

and someone that would go ahead and let me represent not start me at an intern level or an entry level

because that's kinda what I was already looking at, and Sam had brought me and let me bring my clients I already represent

he, you know, coached me when I went out to the people I really wanted to represent and bring them in,

and that's how I met me Matthew.


here we are. I think I was thinking this morning, I was like, lee has it been like, eight years?


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:17:39 

It was


Natalie Kimber  00:17:39 

It's almost bent it's been, like, seven years.


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:17:41 

Yeah. It was around the time. I may have met you, like, once or twice before my first books slowdown came out, but I remember, like,

right around that time. You talking about it and you were so fees and excited about it, and it loved it so much. So, yeah, that was twenty fifteen. So it's definitely been at least seven years. Yeah. Yeah.


Natalie Kimber  00:17:59 

Yes. I. We recall I recall that book launch. That was the such a fun book punch party in New York.


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:18:02 

Yeah. Yeah.

And then I remember we out downtown at at some bar. I wanna say, like, get around Solo,

lower side, and you you just were like, gus about slowdown, and

just nailed because of like, you're take on it and the characters, you know it's a book about horrible people doing horrible things one another.

You like, found the love and the characters for it.

And then, yeah, It was it's it's all history recent plan.


Natalie Kimber  00:18:31 

Right on.


Juliet Hahn  00:18:31 

Yeah. So so I have a question. So now did you guys meet, like, in the... Like, lead did you have other agents before?


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:18:39 



Juliet Hahn  00:18:39 



Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:18:40 

so the president of the rights factory,

Sam Hyatt,

and I've been with him for about a dozen years,

and she presents, like, my thriller


Juliet Hahn  00:18:47 



Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:18:50 

or literary

and then when I had the idea to write a young adult series,

you know, Sam's the guy in his mid fifties

not delicious. you know, put him home last anything. But I was writing a book about


Juliet Hahn  00:19:03 



Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:19:06 

when I was the teenager is about the nineties is about the gru error, and that was just so excited about the idea. It it just seemed like a better fit for that book in that series. And she read it, I believe on like a plane ride going home or over, like, to and and


Natalie Kimber  00:19:23 


Yeah. Like, one sitting on a plane Right? I always tell people. I was laughing so hard, reading the manuscript of Runaway away trains that people on this like, keep on the plane around me were, like, what wrong with her.


like, it it it was the thing where I I would stop laughing and, I it like,

I would like, you know, quiet it down, and then I just couldn't stop laughing. There's so

many funny things in the book. I mean, and I'm I was a rebellious senior teenager in the ninety

So when lee said, he's writing a gru novel with a, you know, a nineties girl protagonist.

I was like, okay. Wow. Yes. Can I see when lead writes? I... Like, please let me read that right away.

And I remember that the went on to like, Facebook, and he's like, hey, all my, you know, all my girls

to grew up in the nineties, you know, all my friends, like, tell me, you know, I were to write up book a y novel from the nineties perspective, like, what can I not miss? And this comment thread was so hilarious was like...


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:20:12 


It like, five hundred comments like people


Natalie Kimber  00:20:26 

Yeah. Like,

several hundred comments. People were

talking about, you know, doc Mart and the Daily of Catalog and sunflower

perfume in nine

and just

you know, kind of all of those

fantastic references. And

really, I I'm just so

nostalgia in general.

I'm like, into all the historical errors and all the wonderful

hilarious things they have. And so

it's just captain in. But, yeah, once I read the book, it's just seemed really clear. And when I talk to Sam about it,

we had sort of the talk about it within the rights factor We're like, so is this in this style drinking look for adults who grew up at that time or is this a book for teens?

And a couple people were like, this is white novel because the protagonist is sixteen, you know, she's in high school. So it should be Why, and I was like, you know, I really feel like this is a book for adults. Like, it's it's for all of us who grew up at that time. I like, I cannot wait for my sister to read this. You know? Like, I have to send it to her meeting and be like, Angie. Come on. But


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:21:22 



Juliet Hahn  00:21:22 



Natalie Kimber  00:21:30 

so, you know, I've

talking about that conversation. That's where sam Hi it was like, I can tell how passionate are about this story.

So why don't you go ahead and, you know, take it out to the world and you and leave... I think at that point, we had known each other

for at least two years. So we... You know, had met several times in New York and gotten the notes


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:21:46 

Yeah. I

keep more...

You know, which what's great also about...

Rights factory and, you know, both my agents is there's an actual, like, friendship, like, think of them, acne people in my life apply or just agent it's very rare, You know, it's a business first us, but I genuinely love not and Sam, and we hang out just as friends as well.

Not and I were at ew this last week we weekend before.

And, you know, just hanging out and there there wasn't that much business talk. Really were just, you know, like, enjoying this company. So


Natalie Kimber  00:22:21 

Keep telling yourself at. We always talk about


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:22:24 

we always talk about business but now, of course, you know, I as it should we we definitely just having, like, a good time. I mean, we went out with night


Natalie Kimber  00:22:27 

No. I know.


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:22:33 

for this great place in old billy gets old city, somewhere around and a

And, yeah, I mean, my point is that... You know, a lot of times, it's really a business relationship, and it's really about money and and etcetera. And to have, you know, not know in my life that genuinely just errors

not just money wise from, like... But really just cares about me.

I I think is, you know, invaluable in in terms of this business because as a writer, you're you're very alone you know, you you right alone and put your work out there and you have a few people in your life,


Natalie Kimber  00:23:06 



Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:23:07 

your career, you know, this agents and editors, you really buy yourself. So you feel like you have somebody like in your foreigner all the time and is really for you and, like, cheer and advocating for you,

you I can't really ask for more in in terms of alicia with that.


Natalie Kimber  00:23:23 



Juliet Hahn  00:23:24 

Yeah. And, you know, and I have to say because that that leads me to like my next my next question is I and I love and you guys can tell, even when I've talked to you guys before, like, you can tell you were your friends. And so I... Because I'm not in, you know, the the book writing business. But I was like, this is so interesting to me. Because you see the movies. Right? You see the movies where the agent, Like, come on. You gotta get a Dawn arr, You know, and they're, like,


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:23:38 



Juliet Hahn  00:23:46 

like, whipping them. And

and so I love that you guys had that friendship. So I would also think it's even

it makes you more successful because you also, like, this is a friend that I wanna... I want her opinion, and I want this. And so it's gonna give you more drive instead of feeling someone. And I know, someone is, like, pushing you to, like, hey, Just keep keep getting out. Keep getting it out. You know, it's like, hey, Let's talk about this. Let's, you know, think about that. So I I love that and that, I wanna go back like when you were talking about books, and it is really true when you think about, I always go back to sixth grade talk of everlasting.


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:23:55 




Juliet Hahn  00:24:19 

For some reason, And again, I... You know, I'm dislikes. So reading was not fun for me, but I...


Natalie Kimber  00:24:19 

Oh, wow.


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:24:20 



Juliet Hahn  00:24:25 

I either had someone

really read it to my. Maybe my mom sat and helped me. I always could read. It was just a comprehend when I read it to myself, I was just slower, but it must have been where there was a connection in that six grade because that is the books that I love. And so I was telling my kids stories. There was a lot about tucker everlasting, and it's funny, and I had they haven't picked that up. I had... My teacher was mrs Williams, and since, she called me Joel,

like, Joy Illinois. I'm like, no. It's Juliet.

But, you know, you you think of those things.


Natalie Kimber  00:24:54 

That's wild.


Juliet Hahn  00:24:55 

It's so funny. But so I I do wanna chat out to response. I also wanna thank, you know, Gina and Ty and This and Will and Fernando, we are gonna be having questions. So you guys hang out because you're gonna be able to ask that

some questions again, if you're just joining, that is a literary agent Lee is a author and screenwriter,

Lee has...

People are calling me, like, do you know it's much time gonna do my shows?


Natalie Kimber  00:25:22 



Juliet Hahn  00:25:23 

We has nine bucks, and so this is like a really fun conversation. Just kind of... Talking about their passion, but I just wanna say shout out to together, women rise is dedicated to ensuring that every woman and girl has the opportunity to live freely

pursue her dreams and reach her full potential.

They are a powerful community of women and allies engaged in learning, giving and community building. Visit them at together women rise dot org to learn more and join them. It's a really great

organization. You guys check them out because They have a newsletter that you can just listen that they

I've had them on the podcast

and what they're doing in in third world countries and around the world is really remarkable what they're doing for women's movement. So it's a great organization so I highly have, you know, really ask you guys to check them out and the other one,

and have you ever been listening to your favorite podcast? So say you're listening to this podcast now and you love something that Matt said or lee said, and you you send it to your friend, and you'd basically see that it's like an hour long. A lot of times, your friends is not gonna listen but if you're able to take a snippet of that


Natalie Kimber  00:26:23 



Juliet Hahn  00:26:26 

part, like, something that Matt said or said and you're like, oh my god. I love that. I want my mom to hear it. You can actually do that now with an app called picked cherries.

And what I love about this app so much is, again, I can share with my friends and family and my fans, little snippets of my favorite podcast, and they can listen to that little snippet, which is gonna make them want to learn more and go in and and listen to the whole episode. So you guys can check out pick cherries and ios or Android.

It's almost like sending a

you know, it's almost like sending an Ig or a tic, so it's just that little snippet, but it's gonna get people to listen more. So if you're... You know, if you're not listening to podcast, and you're not picking cherries. Are you really listening? I don't think so. So check out pick cherries

again, in ios or Android, and thank you guys for sponsoring y live, and

your next stop, you know, it makes us want to continue to create content

and and get it out there and those two organizations are really dear to my heart, and that app is like, it's really changing the way podcaster are listened to because I have now had friends where I've send them a picture.

And they're like, you know, what? Sometimes when you're send me an episode, I don't listen to the whole thing because I don't have time, but I actually now wanna listen because I love that little piece you sent me. So it's really changing the way podcast is. So thank you again.

So that leads me also into the next question that I have because now I'm just I'm fascinated with this world. So

Matt, can you take us and leave? So like, when you first had your first book. Okay. So you you decided you wanted to write a book. Did you go and get an agent first?

Or did you have to write it and then you see in the movies where you had to put it in the envelope and send it to a thousand people? Can you take us through that a little bit?


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:28:03 


Totally. I mean, I also started at a time prior to, like... Email... I mean, email existed. But... Yeah, The first time I was looking for I was right out of my Program. So this was, like, two thousand seven and around two thousand eight. And, yeah, you had to finish a book, which is still the same fiction. You need the book in it.


Juliet Hahn  00:28:12 



Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:28:25 

Non fiction, you could write a proposal and

potentially get a deal off a proposal. But in fiction have done

So I would print out, and I was working on a book called eating the son,

which still has stressful

hope, and I would send out these, like, four hundred pages to every agent in the business.

And, you know, it's just it's it's the tough time because you're dealing with a lot of rejected A lot of times, they like one thing, but then one thing is not working for them,

and then I was putting in touch with Sam through my really good friend Mark Irwin,

is a writer in a writer as well, and you didn't an Program together, and she had just signed and sold her first book with Sam, and she was like, I feel like be a good person for you to talk to.

And I talked to Sam, and he he's like, I love the book, but

these are the, you know, fifteen things that I want you to change. He's, like, take six months, and you you fix all the things and I'm telling you, them we could maybe talk and I fix everything that you said

and then sign with him

right after that, you never sold that book and there's still time to sell it, you know, like, I I feel like a book never dies. It it always still has a chance,

but then we wind up selling like, personal one slowdown.

Soon after.

So, yeah, It was about a three year process to to getting an agent, and then almost in another two year process to to selling the book. So if if you're like, really serious about this business, you have to have think gets skin possible


Juliet Hahn  00:29:49 



Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:29:56 

and rejection is just a mains day. I'm still rejected every... I just had a a movie deal that fell through the last two weeks ago. That was gonna be a potentially huge thing, and we were about to sign. And the producer, the last second decided know. So I'm rejected every day, basically, and you just kinda have to brush it off and be like, alright. Not for this person it's for somebody else. And, again, like I was saying, to have people in your corner, like that is is so important, even when you're dealing with you know, like, a rejection like that. They're like, okay. But now let's focus on this. This other great thing it's happening, and we're gonna it actually this person. And you know, for the last rejection.


Natalie Kimber  00:30:00 




Juliet Hahn  00:30:33 



Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:30:36 

So, yeah, that

my my advice is just glow thick skin.


Juliet Hahn  00:30:40 

Now so that and and then that I wanna jump into you for a second, but I do wanna say, because I talk about rejection all the time, like, failures on my podcast


when you fail, I think you're learning. I don't look at it as, like, you know, your failing. But when I take it back all the way to my childhood, is because I felt so much in school. So it really was like, I am I'm I'm pretty fearless. Like, I don't care if I have an idea. I'm gonna run with it. And a lot of the times, I'm running with it because I don't care and then I'm gonna get rejected. I wanna see what happens, but it's because I've really built a resilience, and I look it back. Yes. I think my parents raised me that way. Yes. I think I was born that way, but and I also think is because how much struggle I had in school. So what do you think held you with that? Was it just like when you decided you wanted to be an author and it was like, okay. Your parents helps you like, hey, no. Like, take a... Can you take us through that a little bit And then now I do wanna jump in and hear, you know, your your thoughts on that as well.


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:31:05 


Yeah. I mean, I'm a very stubborn person into of like, hearing no. So if I don't know

well, if you. Yes.


Natalie Kimber  00:31:42 



Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:31:44 

I my

my manager with this career is I literally wrote everything at the wall and something stick and some don't.

You know, like, this thing I mentioned before, which is really, really hard breaking that it fell through.

It doesn't mean it's dead. Nothing ever dies. So just back to square one with it and you have to start again.

So I I mean, I think kinda keeping that mantra

throughout you know, fifty times and and the bad times is really the best, then you're not so attached, you're can only write one book in that he's the only book you're ever gonna write and the one you're trying with, you know, it might not happen, and you have to be able to be like, okay. I'm gonna start again and it's gonna make me better, and all the rejection has made me a better writer. Because just pushes myself more and more and more. One hundred


Juliet Hahn  00:32:30 



Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:32:31 

and and makes me more stubborn to to make some in the together.


Juliet Hahn  00:32:35 

Well, and and I call a persistence tenacity. I've actually done. I've talked about it a lot on my podcast too because I've also raised my kids to tell them you have to I'm I have one child that's so persistent, I tell them all the time. As a mother, it drives me not. But I'll say this. It drives me notes but you keep that my little friends. You keep that because, guess what? It's gonna make you success night, and you can do it with a very fine line with a very fine line. You don't have to be rude or disrespectful. But if you believe in something and you want something you have to stay the course, you have to be persistent. You have to you have to keep doing it. So I love that you said, you know, the the stubborn part, because it really kind of is interchangeable.


Natalie Kimber  00:32:40 



Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:32:51 



Natalie Kimber  00:32:53 



Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:32:54 


Yeah. Or a better word is like, I'm a hustle. I'm a host at day every day. I'm mean just, like, possible to get stuff out there and to just go bigger make bigger and bigger. So, yeah, in any career, be hustle, like, you know,


Juliet Hahn  00:33:14 

How. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

You definitely have to do that. So matt, I definitely wanna hear your take because I know We just brought... If you're... Chris, hey, I know you have a question. I'm gonna jump to that a second. But lee you just talked about how you know, in the beginning, he wrote that boom can sent that envelope out to everyone before he was, you know, before he got his agent


Natalie Kimber  00:33:40 



Juliet Hahn  00:33:43 

Chris and the audience wife is ready to write a book. So he was like, oh my gosh. I was in his room yesterday. He's was like, I have to I have to come into say, you know, and listen to this. So

Matt, when you

are getting, so you're obviously getting emails now or like, they don't do an old school where. So you're getting


Natalie Kimber  00:33:57 

Oh, yeah. I get them all all day.


Juliet Hahn  00:33:59 

And so take us through that process a little bit, and then, Chris, I'll I'll ask your question, and then we'll have, you know, people jump up and ask some questions too.

So if... Now, if you can take us through that a little bit what that looks like?


Natalie Kimber  00:34:08 

Yeah. Sure.

So so in in the publishing industry, that's called query.

When you query an agent

that's sending a submission email that, like, describes your project. Kind a little bit about you, hopefully, you know, beautifully in a very compelling way. And sometimes

depending on the agency, they'll tell you what to send, but you'll attach a little bit of the manuscript,

a couple chapters

or sometimes it's just the letter, and you're basically saying, do you want to represent me? And so that's a query or querying and,

you know, agents who are established get you know, anywhere from, you know, twenty to two hundred of those a week.

The reality is, you know, in a six month, period, I usually can only take on

probably three clients

in six month period or about six a year

And and that's kind of like a high bar, at least for me, I know some some newer agents are growing their lists. And so if you're an author who has a book that you're ready to go out with and try to find representation.

You wanna kind of, you know, be likely you wanna throw everything at the wall. You wanna make it a numbers game,

you know, it's good to research what agents are out there kind of doing what your book is. So say, you know, just adult commercial novel. Like, go out there, find out who's represents

gave you novels because if this is your first book, it'll will be your debut book.

And and you just wanna email that query off to every single agent that you know, does that, even if it's two hundred agents.

And, ideally, you will get a response to have couple of them will say, I really like this. This sounds great. Can I read it and that's called a manuscript request.

And so when we request manuscript base saying, you know, I I love this project. I'm gonna take a look at it. It's not a promise. It doesn't mean i wanna represent you, but it means I'm taking it to the next page of, review

and really authors.

I I think that this is the hardest part for them is breaking into the industry and sending those two hundred letters and the amount of rejection letters they're getting back,

which at this point, I think agents are so busy that

almost all of us send form letter rejection, which are really nice way of saying. Thank you for contacting us with your query

who's looked at it. It's not quite right for us right now. Thank you. You know,

It's a polite know, and I just know that it authors who are starting out they kind

you know, first, it just seems like a whole mystery. How do I break in? How do I make this happen? How do I get my agent? Who's gonna champion my book and sell it you know, the big industry.

And really just... You have to just make it number steam and then just

remove all,


Juliet Hahn  00:36:50 



Natalie Kimber  00:36:51 

you know,

of your

all of those, like, emotional feelings from it because

ninety nine point nine percent of the time, I don't say no to a book because just think, oh, wow. What a terrible author? This book sucks?

You know, it's not that I'm just, like, throwing things aside, like, thinking that I'm better than them. It's just that I don't have the right

take on it. It doesn't inspire me passionately enough, like, a lot of the book but I represent so that when I go out there to the industry, I can sell it powerfully and make sure that it guests would deserve

a lot of times, it can just be that our plates are so full. We just can't take something new on or it's

perhaps we're not as

as familiar with that aspect of the book industry, which, of course, as I always say, the book industry is the most enormous industry of a bot fold thing.

There are more books out there, than there's any other, like, thing bought fold and the variety and the different ways to do it. And keep that in mind as well. You're gonna have different agents say, I want you to send this or different agency say. I work on these books, but not on these, and that's perfectly okay.

If those agents are out there doing whatever they're doing, and it's not you,

don't hate on them for it. But, you know, keep looking for the person who's gonna like you saying because I think eventually,

if you just stay positive, you'll you will get there. And the other thing about it is that I know Lee talks about how as a writer you're alone,

you're alone a lot in your creative process head, you're alone when you're writing your manuscript,

and sometimes you feel alone when you're starting to share it or maybe I know a lot of writers, their spouse don't even read their votes.

That's a very common and totally okay thing if that's, you know, what it is. But

but being a part of a writer community is absolutely everything, and that is

jumping into a writer's group in your area, like, getting on meetup dot com, finding a writer or circle or a repeat group that is going to readings,


Juliet Hahn  00:38:48 



Natalie Kimber  00:38:54 

I think once you

once you get involved in the writer community in your city

or a town, people will come out of the wood work and start telling you, you know, when there's readings when there's things you can come out to book launch of parties, and it's there that you're gonna meet great friends. That introduce you to people, like, you're possible,


Juliet Hahn  00:39:08 



Natalie Kimber  00:39:15 

you know, new agents that's gonna represent you. Because, you know,

in a way, those connections

those personal connections always


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:39:22 



Natalie Kimber  00:39:24 

do, you know, always make a

a big impression on us.


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:39:27 



Natalie Kimber  00:39:29 

When Lee tells me that he has an author, you really wanted me to consider that someone that he knows and thinks is really

talented and champions them. I know that she's thinking about

are they a business minded professional author who is ready to go ready to work of people

and sort of at this level, and I can feel really confident about that.

And so I actually think I know we

led to one of my clients Jeffrey Bargain,

because Jeff was selling his book in Union Square park.

Selling his self published book Met,

we invited into to a couple readings. Jeff and I met and


Juliet Hahn  00:40:07 



Natalie Kimber  00:40:08 

sparks our fantastic relationship now that is, you know, five six years.

And, Jeff, and I work on all kinds of other literary efforts like mono the journal and some other things But so, you know, it's about really getting out there in your community. And the other thing that makes me a start author that I just think every author can take page out of this book.

Is that he's always working on something different. He has different projects in the pipeline.


I mean, leave

we you are incredibly...

You're very special in that you are prolific. You write really fast. So Julia, I've never had to crack away since say and done


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:40:41 



Juliet Hahn  00:40:46 



Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:40:46 



Natalie Kimber  00:40:46 

We have always been, like, it's ready. And I'm like, oh my gosh. Really already. Okay. Okay. Like, let's do this. You know?

But not everybody can be that way, but you can always be working on

even like flash fiction, which is fiction is under five hundred worth

or micro fiction under a hundred words.

Poetry essay, you know, if you have a great book, but you're also working in the face of trying to publish smaller pieces.

You'll meet editors, other authors, you'll read other authors who are in this space trying to publish which you'll be involved in the community, and that is absolutely everything when you're trying to publish

either through an agent or through a small press

just being engaged is everything. So... And you'll also get that solidarity from everybody who knows what you've been through, And you'll have those... You know, it's basically, like, not just, like doing it just so you can get published but doing it so that you can open up your circle and, you know, make a million friends


Juliet Hahn  00:41:29 

I love that.


Natalie Kimber  00:41:46 

who are all kind of, you know, doing stuff like you and it just... It really opens the horizons and also, like, that whole emotional struggle

with how it works. You'll always have a friend to talk to about that because

if we all go through it. Every one of us. And the last thing we'll say is that agents get reject to two, when we take a book out,


Juliet Hahn  00:42:01 



Natalie Kimber  00:42:05 

I may take, you know, a book

like these next novels

and take it out to,

you know, anywhere from if I'm on the small end, like, ten fifteen editors up to, like, forty five or fifty

editors who I know Target and try to say, hey, please read this book.

Most of those are probably going to reject and usually, you just have to get down to the one or the two or... I mean, you always want an option so you want as money to love it. But

you wanna get it to the person who's gonna love it. And so in the meantime, you agents are over here submitting multiple books at a time,

collecting multiple rejection, and

we, you know, we feel it too, especially when we know how much we love a book. So authors should always know that we're out there, you know,

doing it to dealing with gatekeepers feeling with the submission process.

Trying to make everything per trying to you know, attain

but we're doing it for you.



Juliet Hahn  00:43:02 

Right. And I mean, I love love the love test there because you guys can tell you really enjoy working. So I had two questions for you, and then, Chris, I I'm gonna bring you up so you can ask your question.

But so do you ever, like, where you have a book and you're, like, I love this, but it's not the right time for me, but I know of someone else or it's not the right thing and and then you handed it to another



Natalie Kimber  00:43:24 

Yeah. Yeah. Actually, I think most agencies kind of have a process for that. We actually have, like, an internal slack channel where when we look at a pitch we're like, this is really cool, but I just don't think it's for me. We'll put it in there, and then it's kind of, you know, any of the agents can say I like that.


Juliet Hahn  00:43:40 

Got it.


Natalie Kimber  00:43:41 

Or a lot of times,

I know exactly to would goes to. I know I know the other agents at the race factory and what they work on

And so if somebody pictures me like, a middle grade non fiction about bugs, I'm like, this is a safety book immediately, and I just send this to her because we all... Within our agency,

which I don't think is is very traditional,

we're very collaborative we're not very competitive.

I know other agencies that are more traditional in New York agents are competing against each other. They are just fighting for the best project, and sometimes it's a little more sharpie in those scenarios.


Juliet Hahn  00:44:05 

That's great.



Natalie Kimber  00:44:17 

The rights factory is I and I'm I'm not trying to give me in other agencies. A lot of them are

helping each other out and helping other agents. But... Yeah, if there's something

that I know would be better for a colleague, I'm always happy to send it along. With you that all the time.


Juliet Hahn  00:44:31 

I love that. And then the other thing I went to say as and,

you know, I'm... I talk everyone that, you know, he knows my podcast. I talk about this all the time when I truly believe that we all have a you know, whether it's god or the universe that you believe in that we all have a path, and it sounds like lee completely found as fast. Like, there's people that, you know, are meant to be writers, but at a certain time in their life, maybe not in their twenties, Maybe not in their thirties, but maybe in their fifties, that's what they're meant to and all their little you know, life experiences lead them to that fifty year old. We're, okay. I'm a writer, But then there's the people that are meant to be writers when they're twenty, and it's just than it but kinda of flows and they can get it out because it's like, god or the university everyone wanna believe is like, yep, you're on the right path. I'm gonna keep feeding you this information. I'm gonna keep feeding you these, you know, people to put you in touch with. And so that's what I want. You know, again, and this is why it's so interesting with this. Is I want the listeners to hear right now, you know, wherever your listening of you're... You know, Got tons of people in Linkedin,


Natalie Kimber  00:45:00 



Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:45:17 



Juliet Hahn  00:45:27 


even if you wanna be writer of but right now, you've had so many nose and you're so discouraged and you're like, oh, my god. This is not for me. It maybe is not for you at this time. You know, I'm a perfect example of, you know, I've had a lot of different careers in my life. I've... You know, I also stopped and stayed home and and raised my three kids who I'm still raising. But then I found this passion of of podcasting, and it kinda came out of I was in a creative rut, and I, you know, it was like, I need something. So I was like, that, I was started podcast.

And from there, you know, quarantine happened, and I started interviewing people, and then I was like, oh, my gosh. This is what I am meant to do. And it's what I'm meant to do now. And and and I really believe this is what I'm meant to do for the rest of my life, but it's really cool when that happens, you get into this flow where things yes. There's not... You know, there's some days that you're like, oh, god. You know, you're exhausted. But a lot of times, you can kinda snap out of it. Like, quickly. It's Okay. What's the next thing? I need to like, move on to what's the next idea? So

I love that you kinda described Leah event, and that was, you know, so beautiful to see because I'm sure there's people out there that have agents also, maybe that

are are they're not eyes connected. And what do you say? Both of you? What do you say to that that individual? And then press I will bring you up. What do you say that individual that has an agent, but they feel like they're stuck and it's just not mesh. What do what should they do? And either of you can go first?


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:46:46 

So. I I... You know, I think if it's not working, it might not be working.

So you you wanna find somebody that's looking at your rear really not necessarily just like a book.

So sometimes it's better to cut your losses and find somebody new, and it's very scary because like, how would an agent

you know, that is terrifying.

But if for whatever reason, the relationship just... Even working maybe that person just something be your agent.

And I'll say I'll add to just something that you said kinda it earlier...

Right before Juliet.

You know, this career could happen in any time you eighty, and that's when your first book come out. There's also where if you're getting fully rejected


Juliet Hahn  00:47:24 



Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:47:27 

and you want your book out there, with your book out there, self

get. A publicis.


Natalie Kimber  00:47:32 



Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:47:33 

You wanna put the work in, you can make something happen to it. If you're really like, hustle basis.


no for an answer. If that's your dream and that's what you find. So publishing has completely changed in the last few years. There's not a stigma like there used to be put your book on Amazon you get readers, and get it out there you can get into into a book for calculator.


Natalie Kimber  00:47:49 



Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:47:54 

So, like, again, just don't take no for an answer. This is really what you're meant to do.

Yeah. Put it out there, but make sure it's fully edited and it's perfect don't put. Yeah.


Natalie Kimber  00:48:05 



Juliet Hahn  00:48:05 

Crap. Don't put out crap.


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:48:07 

That crap. No.


Natalie Kimber  00:48:08 

Yeah. I would agree with believe that there is an audience no matter why right. You know, there are so many ways. There's,

you know, what path, there's Amazon policy your kindle publishing


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:48:17 



Natalie Kimber  00:48:19 

there's a lot of avenues that you can take to distribute what you've written. If you're really at that's where you're like, okay. Well, a traditional publisher not really coming right now. So I'm gonna I'm gonna do something else. That's the reason why the writer community is just everything is that you will find a way.


Juliet Hahn  00:48:20 



Natalie Kimber  00:48:35 

To get your work, you know, red and for people to experience it, and to give you that feedback, like, oh, I really love this deep.

There are just,

you know, a thousand

or more literary journals out there in the United States that are all seeking work. And you can start your own too. It's really all about, you know,

doing, like, a a basic web design set and, you know, going out asking you for submissions,

checking, you know, checking them over, seeing what things you love, picking a theme,

and there's a lot of the aspiring writers you go the route of actually starting a journal

so that they can, you know, publish a couple of their own things, but publish other people at the same time. And be learning what that business is like, in the process. So they're kind of seeing the other side of it.

And so, yeah, I mean, I do think that there's

there's a lot of people who are

trying to be writers, and

that... you know, there's this perception that is full time job. It certainly can be. I mean, you can... There can be work for you for forty hours or sixty hours a week as we can probably attest too.

But also,

if you're a person who is bogged down by another job in your life, and you still wanna write, there's still space for you. You can still, you know, work on small pieces or work on sections of your novel

and you know, you have to set aside that time for you to write, but there's everything from residency

that will, you know, support you taking

weekend to away from your family. So all you can do is go off into the mountains in a peaceful place and have a nice quiet space couple other writers.

Frequencies, there's a lot of, like, you know, programs at local colleges.

There's always, you know, Programs and those kinds of things where you can really learn the process

and learn,

you know, with a lot of students. And

I think one of the things is is no matter what stage you're at in writing,

I always want my writers to think about, like, where they're gonna be in, like, five years or ten years. To think, you know, they know that they love this book They've written, and I know that I love this book they written, and we're gonna go out there and we're gonna try. But if this one doesn't happen,

it's gonna get them to their next book and their next book and their next week after that, you going to see their writing grow, and that's something that has been so beautiful in this and is watching writers,

go from their first book to their third force. And as we're reading it, we're like,

like, I I will tell them I can see your writing has gotten so much better. And it's not to say it was horrible before because I loved it, but I've seen where you've come and it's so exciting.


to always just think, you know, start where you start. Everybody starts somewhere,


Juliet Hahn  00:51:18 

I love that.


Natalie Kimber  00:51:22 

but you're always going to be getting better, and that goes for everybody that's in our creative in.

You have to start somewhere. But when I started working with the rights factor, I was like, okay. I know I'm here with Asian King, and I love what I'm bringing to this. I'm gonna get better.

And, you know, with mentor and with this company, I've seen myself grow, and I think we call all as creative, you can all relate to that.


Juliet Hahn  00:51:43 

I love that. I love that. So I'm gonna let Chris because of and anyone else I want to ask a question, we have about ten more minutes.


Natalie Kimber  00:51:48 



Juliet Hahn  00:51:50 


You're on the stage.

Chris has got a great voice. Just be ready.


Chris Rossetti  00:51:56 

Good morning, everybody.


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:51:58 



Chris Rossetti  00:51:58 

Thank you.


Juliet Hahn  00:51:58 

I told you.


Natalie Kimber  00:51:59 



Chris Rossetti  00:52:00 

Thank you. Thank you, Julia for a great show and Thank you for the opportunity to speak.

I've have a question for Natalie and for,

Natalie, the question for you is this...

Oh, what format?

Should a writer use my wife, for example, writing, what is it word documented? I mean, what is the appropriate thing to submit things on or two? And then for lee,

how can I help my wife not to be such

a perfectionist

in the drafting stage?

In other words, she writes so

slowly because she's editing constantly.

I'm whispering because I don't wanna get beat up. They


Natalie Kimber  00:52:37 

Okay. I'll say,

doc or doc, which is, you know, the the sort of ubiquitous

start to Microsoft word or you can use Google docs

to have the same thing.

That's always acceptable.

And so this is for everybody listening that wants submit a book to an agent or a publisher.

You want a a off file, that's so that it can be edited down the road.

You wanna double spaced

twelve point type

and just the basic on one inch margins,

put your page members on there.

That's a Now you can submit a double space document

as a Pdf

that always works to at least in the early reading stage, most of us you know, we'll take that. But doc for Pdf.

That's usually it.


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:53:26 

Yeah. I and I would say


Juliet Hahn  00:53:26 

Love that.


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:53:28 

your wife have a process, like, don't... On that's other their process if she takes forever,

that's that's how she writes, like, I'm just super fast, so that wouldn't work for me. And you look at an author, like, Donna That takes ten years to write a book. And when pulitzer search? So maybe that's your wife's path. You know? I I will say though, yeah. I I'm being whole fun you... You know, or a first draft

sometimes you want just the bonnet on the page. So, maybe just to encourage, her, just get it out as raw as possible, and then always go back and fine tune and fine a little more. But just to get it out there, at first, I I think it's always a good idea So you you're not worried about, like, where it's going. It's already there, lined up. But other than that, yeah, that's a process.


Natalie Kimber  00:54:16 

Yeah. I would say

if if you could say you got some by,

I agree, you process is like, whatever gets it on the page for you and how, you know, how much you struggle with that That's fine.


you know, learning about outlining can possibly help her to go a little faster so that she knows what's coming next and then you get excited to, like, into those scenes. So you might, you know,


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:54:31 

Yeah. You


Natalie Kimber  00:54:40 

be writing through a little more, and then just this phrase that we can all learn from is don't let perfection be the enemy the good.

You know, if you're going over at going over going over it and it's stopping you from actually getting it out or getting it on the page,

because you're just trying to make it perfect. And, you know, you're

you're not letting the good flow. Just let the good flow because if the good is there and there's some type of who cares.

I don't throw a man script out because that has side, especially if I love it. I'll I'll help them fix those type of and I think a lot of other agencies read.


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:55:13 

You also... I I mean, just a piggyback back off of wouldn't that. So yeah absolutely outlines. I I always use outlines.


Juliet Hahn  00:55:15 



Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:55:19 

But I you mean, you're not always,

you know, like, reinventing the wheel.

It's a book, and many people have written book before and your book probably I can use that much different than any other book that's out there. So

just focus on getting it done and getting that book, you know,

completion and not having it have to be like, the... You know, this is the book that's gonna we me National before. They probably not. You just kinda get that book out there as much as possible. And the last thing I'll say, really wanna make sure that you're enjoying the fraud it's like a chef


Natalie Kimber  00:55:52 



Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:55:53 

but will love into it. You can see it on the paper as well. So I love what you're doing. If it's staring a blank you're eating yourself every day. Maybe me not the best career for you.


Natalie Kimber  00:56:03 

That's also where writers community comes in because if you have a writing buddy, you can meet with and work on and say, okay. We're gonna get five pages done today, then, you know, you might be able to...


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:56:05 




Natalie Kimber  00:56:14 

She might you or her, whoever writing might be able to get a little bit farther

along when you kind of have a goal a set with buddy. Isn't it... Isn't it Stephen King who says he writes? Like, thirty pages a day or five pages a day or something like that. And that's how every book gets done. Maybe it's even three pages a day

like three full pages.


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:56:33 



Natalie Kimber  00:56:35 

And then the next day, you make sure you hit your three pages. And then, you know,


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:56:38 

what keeping does, that's really interesting which I've always used is you ramps up the action as the page it goes

you always wanna be turning the page and it's great for an author


Natalie Kimber  00:56:49 

Oh wow.


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:56:50 

you to, like, move yourself forward it as well. You if you're not writing a thriller all books should be, like, a little bit of a thriller heart on a state. To keep like get us, like, you need drama and intrigue and tension and suspect like, you need that. So to always think, like, okay, I'm ramping things up as the page is going, to people wanna put it to the next one.


Juliet Hahn  00:56:57 



Natalie Kimber  00:57:10 

That's awesome. I've never heard that advice, but I think that's


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:57:12 


I I've taken it I've taken energy


Natalie Kimber  00:57:14 

really great.

I think I'm gonna... I'm gonna try that. If once I start writing again, never.


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:57:17 




Chris Rossetti  00:57:19 

So so so what you're telling me is writing as much like my thirty five year marriage drama intrigue tension,


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:57:26 



Chris Rossetti  00:57:26 

Thank you very much, everybody. Thank you so much.


Natalie Kimber  00:57:28 

Thank you, Crap.


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:57:28 

What it the book get into the book?


Juliet Hahn  00:57:29 

Thanks, Chris.


I know... And, you know, and one thing I wanna add to this in which it always comes back. I mean, there's always a theme in my podcast.

But, you know, what? It's so...

Everyone needs to find their strengths and weaknesses, and they need to work how they work best. So I think a lot of times, you know, you you have it's funny where I always will take it down to, like,


Natalie Kimber  00:57:45 



Juliet Hahn  00:57:50 

someone that struggles in school. Okay? Maybe they struggle on math and science, but they're really good at history english and public schools are constantly trying to get them better math and science and forgetting about the history in English. And it's like, well, how about we just give them more support in the history in English because that's what they're really good at and just say, okay, maybe you're not gonna be a mathematician or a scientist because we could do... All... And that's one of the things when I struggled as I was really good at some things, but they just kept focusing on things really they suck that. And it was like, okay. I just talking that. I I I don't. I'm not gonna be a math petition. So it just looks with kinda do it. So Chris, like, thinking about your wife, what she's good at her strength maybe is that she works better where she puts it down, and then she edits because then it gets her brain flowing again. If it's making her stop and her flow, then no. She wants to change that. I would I would assume, Like, if you have a flow, you just kinda vomit it out, but if you're someone that needs to take pauses, of that's, you know, how you work best. I think that's probably

what's really important. Does anyone else in the audience have you have a question for these guys?


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:58:45 

I had gonna I just a quick thing to that Juliet.


Juliet Hahn  00:58:48 

Please. I love that.


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:58:49 

You know,

it's so important, especially for, like, emerging writers. You're finding your voice sometimes it takes, like, two three books to find that voice. So this first book that she's working on might be just the book which she's finding that and then the next one really been a like saying.


Juliet Hahn  00:59:06 

No. I love that. I think it's so true. So anyone that's in the audience that doesn't know how to ask a question. If you guys hit that little reaction, over to the right. You'll see there's an emoji with, like a like a like, a question.

You can click that

and then you can present and it shows me that you have a question

or you can click the two lines to the left,

and will say,

asked to to speak, and then I can kinda see that as well. If you guys don't have questions, that's also okay. In the meantime, why don't matt and

everyone where they can find you. I know I wrote this in the in the fortune cookie, but as I'm reading it, I'm like, oh, that's a lot of words. Like, that might be... It's gonna be in the show notes when this goes out. So no worries, you will find it, but it is maybe a little a little bit too many words in a small scroll. So if you guys can shout out where people can find you best, that would be awesome.


Lee Matthew Goldberg  00:59:56 

Sir. You could find me my website is matthew Go, my full name dot com.

You Matthew Go

Instagram, and Matthew De on Twitter.


Juliet Hahn  01:00:07 



Natalie Kimber  01:00:08 

Yeah. I'm

under of the agency page at the rights factory dot com.

I'm on Twitter,

underscore t.

It's Google Matt Kim or Natalie Kimberly, you I'll come write up.

I'm on Facebook as Neck Kim,

and Instagram, I started as a little bit of a personal thing so i keep my handle there. It's a... You need a z, n I it's for an old

writer alias I had


Lee Matthew Goldberg  01:00:35 

Okay. No that


Natalie Kimber  01:00:36 

back in the day.


Lee Matthew Goldberg  01:00:37 

I always


Natalie Kimber  01:00:37 

And the the the Johnny Writing academy back in two thousand and seven was a little collective of Denver writers

where I wrote as ladies you need a

But so


Thank you so much, Julia. This has been just incredible.

I wanna say if... If you guys are interested at all to read lee's books, they are absolutely fabulous,


Juliet Hahn  01:00:53 



Natalie Kimber  01:00:59 

especially the runaway train series.

First book is Runaway train. The second is grenade,

and third is Vanished me.

They are

they are why

gru novels, of a very rebellious teenage girl who

takes off on on a on a runaway white trip is really the very, very remind you just dismay to say it, but also, they're very nostalgic If you love music of that era,

if you grew up in the Nineties or if you're a belly of kid, then you will probably love need post the character and these books.

But, yeah, I mean, we're talking earlier about slowdown. That's the first book. It's a really dark thriller

about a guy trying to make it in the film business in New York and psychedelic, and it's super new,

and it is like, weird and awesome and just really know,


as a book, It will stick with you.

And lee has, you know, so many others if you have the mentor, the ancestor store,

and more to come. So...


Juliet Hahn  01:02:01 

Which is exciting. I mean I love how we connected. This is why I love what I do is because I had a guest on who I actually used to work with years ago, and she's doing some really cool things, and that's how Leanne and I kinda connected and we talked about... Okay. How can we do this? And then you said, hey, why don't we also have my, you know, my literary agent on? And I said, oh, my god. That last would be so fun because we can make this a little bit of an education. We can also, you know, if any of you do find after you leave, you know, you're like, oh, wait. I have a question. I know a lot of time now that people are going back to the office, they'll text me later, and they're like, I couldn't... You know, I couldn't come up and speak because I'm in my office, I'm not supposed to be listening to your show, but I love the shows, and I really wanted to jump on you know, what that, just... You know, you guys can find me on Ig. And I am Joy Han. I'm sure you would take questions from, you know, not


Lee Matthew Goldberg  01:02:14 



Juliet Hahn  01:02:49 

would you guys if they email you or...


Lee Matthew Goldberg  01:02:51 



Natalie Kimber  01:02:51 

Yeah. Email is Natalie at right factory dot com.


Lee Matthew Goldberg  01:02:55 

Yeah. And you could find my email on my website mean matthew over dot com.


Juliet Hahn  01:02:58 

And just say I was on Fireside because, you know, they probably get tons of emails and


Lee Matthew Goldberg  01:03:00 




reach out.


Juliet Hahn  01:03:03 



Natalie Kimber  01:03:04 



Juliet Hahn  01:03:05 

Now this was awesome. and I'm just, you know, so thankful. And I I have a feeling that this is not gonna be the first show that you guys are on because as we were going. I was like, oh, I see this is a series where we can come on and talk.


Lee Matthew Goldberg  01:03:12 



Natalie Kimber  01:03:16 

  1. Let's do this.


Juliet Hahn  01:03:17 

I mean, but I'm serious. I really think it will be really cool because it will be really fun for as you're growing and that you're growing, but also, I think a lot of people, there's so many people out there that you I run across with i'm, like I wanna write a book or I wanna do this. And they don't know the steps and really in anything, whether it's the screen, writing, which you can talk, you know, also about their so many different things about starting something new that there's the, you know, the scary part of it. It's like the failure part that we talked about. But then there's also the part of, like, I just don't know what to do. And I think what you guys do and your industry can also relate to other industries like here. These are the first things that you need to do and you guys have such, you know, in the the book the world of books, there is such a process. It's like, okay. This is what you're supposed to do, x y and z, and it really kinda leads to other industry. So I kinda love that.


Lee Matthew Goldberg  01:03:37 



Natalie Kimber  01:03:42 



Lee Matthew Goldberg  01:03:43 



Juliet Hahn  01:04:07 

So you guys will we'll be here. You know, once again, I do wanna shout out...


Natalie Kimber  01:04:10 



Juliet Hahn  01:04:11 


together, women rise is a dedicated, ensuring that every women and girl has opportunity to live freely,

pursue her green dreams and reach out, reach her full potential. We are a powerful community of women and allies engage in learning giving and community building, Please check them out at together women rise dot org to learn more join them. Seriously. If you guys just go check it out, it's again together women rise dot or sign up for their newsletter. They have chapters all across the United States, and they're doing really, really cool things.

We're gonna probably have a couple of their

their donors on because the stories when we talk about stories a couple of, you know, Barb and when were on? And those stories, I was like, oh my gosh. That's so freaking cool. So check out what they're doing. And then again, if you guys love this episode, this will go out in a couple weeks. It will go on my Rs where you can get them apple and Spotify. You can check it out here on Fireside, But if you're listening on Youtube and, you know, Twitch and Facebook,


and Linkedin and you're like, how do I share it? How do I share it? This is you can go on Fire But if you're not remember Fireside in a couple weeks, it will go out on your next stop. And what's gonna be really fun is that you can get it on picked cherries and that has picked cherries. Like, yes, I'm picking a cherry. And and what that is is an app. You can get it on ios right now in Android,

and it is free, and you can listen to your favorite podcast but as there's that moment, that quote, like, both of these guys have said really great quotes. I think I have two.

But there are some really great things that we talked about here. You can take that little snippet and send it to your friend that maybe wants to be a writer, but if you send them the whole episode, they're, like, and I don't have that hour. I don't know. You know, you send them that little snippet. Maybe that's something that Not said about what the process of writing or what lisa said about, you know, the rejection thing. And they can say, wait I wanna listen more. So that is called. When you take it snippet it, it's called a pictures cherry. It's almost like an Ig or a tick talk that you can send to your friends and family, but they can get involved in your favorite... Your favorite podcast. So go over and download pictures today. And start listening to your favorite podcast, and you can find this on there in the next couple weeks, where then you can share. So thank you everyone for joining y live. Thank you Matt. Thank you, Leigh.


Natalie Kimber  01:06:19 


Thank you, Juliet.

So fun.


Lee Matthew Goldberg  01:06:22 

So much.


Juliet Hahn  01:06:22 

This was

yeah. Really, really fun. And again, and and I'm not... I'm not blowing smoke. I really wanna talk about doing this, like, a monthly thing.


Natalie Kimber  01:06:28 



Lee Matthew Goldberg  01:06:30 

Any anytime anytime you want I'm down.


Natalie Kimber  01:06:33 

Yeah. I'm dumb.


Juliet Hahn  01:06:33 

Alright, guys.


Natalie Kimber  01:06:34 

Thanks, Juliet.


Juliet Hahn  01:06:34 

Alright. Thank you, everyone for joining.


Natalie Kimber  01:06:35 

Thanks. Good see you.


Juliet Hahn  01:06:37 

We will see you, Thursday. I have a y slide with Nfl thread Brandy d scales. Her husband is a long picture one long snap and football. We're gonna go and dive in what her life is. So we will see you guys Thursday here on Fireside.


Natalie Kimber  01:06:49 



Juliet Hahn  01:06:52 

By everyone.

My focus is entirely on helping you follow your passion, even when you feel like you've got stuck in crazy town. There is a way out, its me helping you. You don't have to ditch everything in your life that is making you feel overwhelmed and stuck, you just need some help to navigate it.


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